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em>At least 60,000 people, mostly asylum seekers, are believed to have made so-called '€œirregular'€ maritime journeys last year, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) says. More than 1,300 people are estimated to have gone missing or been killed during the often perilous voyages. On the sidelines of an International Workshop on the Protection of Irregular Movements of Persons at Sea in Jakarta on Tuesday, the UNCHR'€™s regional representative, James Lynch (JL), and senior regional protection adviser, Thomas Vargas (TV), gave an interview to a limited number of Indonesian press outlets, including The Jakarta Post, to talk about their hopes of providing better protection to asylum seekers and refugees.

Question: How did your meeting go on Monday with representatives from 14 countries to address the issue of boat people protection, and in particular Australia'€™s '€œturn-back-the-boats'€ policy?

Answer: JL: The meeting was not meant to point fingers. A solution cannot be found in blaming one state over another, or any organization. [What is needed] is to sit around the room and try to find the best solution. It was not to say '€˜this is what Australia is doing, which is not in keeping with international law'€™. It was to say what the law states and [how countries can] fulfill their obligations in dealing with this global problem. And the problem here seems to be on the rise as opposed to the decline.

What is your opinion of Australia'€™s policies on boat people?

JL: Let'€™s try to understand Australia'€™s perspective. Australia feels that there has been a great loss of lives, and every loss of life is tragic. They would like to not have people getting into boats that are probably, in most cases, unseaworthy, and risking their lives. There should be more regular channels of migration to Australia. I think Australia is also concerned about criminality or the organizing of criminal elements. That is why the UNODC [UN Office on Drugs and Crime] was also an observer at the meeting. They are concerned that people are preying on the most desperate. So, we can see things from Australia'€™s perspective.

Where the UNHCR is concerned, if someone enters, travels to Indonesia, leaves on a boat clandestinely as an irregular maritime boat departure, and enters Australia'€™s territorial waters or lands on the territory of Australia '€” we are insisting that as a signatory of the 1951 [Refugee] Convention and the 1967 protocol, it will honor its legal obligations and allow disembarkation and access to asylum procedures.

What ramifications does the convention have?

JL: I can'€™t think of any legal sanctions that can be imposed if a country doesn'€™t honor the convention. We can only raise our concerns.

TV: The point is that there is a legal framework for refugees and asylum seekers who need to have access to protection. The door has to be open in order for them to be provided with and afforded that protection. If every state in the region decides to close their doors, then people will have no safe place to go.

What can the UNHCR do to make states fulfill their obligations?

TV: We are not a law enforcement agency. We are a humanitarian agency, which is mandated to protect refugees and asylum seekers, and to work with states to ensure that they live up to their obligations.

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott claims his government'€™s border policy has stemmed the number of boat people, with no asylum seekers arriving on Australian shores for more than 100 days. Does the Australian government deserve credit for saving lives?

JL: Any life that is saved is commendable. We understand that the deterrent policy [was intended] to prevent people from risking their lives.

But now we'€™re coming to an area which is not totally within the UNHCR'€™s purview, where people say someone arrives from a country, not because of the political situation or persecution or discrimination; they just feel compelled to leave.

Say they need a job. It would be much better to have a migration system '€” like Malaysia has put in place '€” so that people can come, work legally and send remittances back home via banks. That way, they would enjoy some freedom and access to health care, and all everything would be in place. When people for desperate reasons take desperate measures, we expect countries to honor their international obligations.

The number of asylum seekers seeking registration at the UNHCR Indonesia fell from around 100 people a day to 100 a week between December 2013 and March this year. What is your response to suggestions that these figures show that Australia'€™s strategy on boat people is working?

TV: I think such suggestions are premature. It is jumping to conclusions to say that the number of people registering at the UNCHR has decreased and that, therefore, [Australia'€™s] policy is working. It is a big jump because there is a great deal we don'€™t know. There may be a lot of people here in Indonesia who have decided not to register with the UNHCR, leading to a drop in numbers. It doesn'€™t mean that the number of new arrivals in Indonesia has necessarily dropped. They could just be going elsewhere to decide what they should do and bypassing the UNHCR. There is no reliable information connecting the drop in registration numbers at the UNHCR with the policy that Australia is implementing.