Sir Richard J. Roberts (Courtesy of Binus University)

Nobel laureates in a variety of science fields recently gathered in Jakarta as part of the International Peace Foundation’s “Bridges” event, engaging local minds in “Dialogues toward a culture of peace.” In a country that has been struggling with scientific research and development, scientists Sir Richard J. Roberts and Sheldon L. Glashow spoke about the importance of research funding, fostering interest in the sciences and boosting relevant industries in Indonesia with The Jakarta Post’s Tama Salim and Liza Yosephine. Here are excerpts from the interview:

Question (Q): As a developing country Indonesia is falling behind in scientific progress. Is there any way for us to catch up scientifically — is there a shortcut? And how important is catching up?

Robert (R): Well, I mean, let me start off at least. So, one of the things that’s happening in the developing world is the adoption of smart phones.

Cellphones, sort of went, people went from having no phones to having cell phones and they didn’t bother with a land line and everything that went in between. And I think this was very smart. [...] And so, I think, yes, you can often skip areas of development that have taken place.

But what this means is, you have to be aware of what is going on in the rest of the world. And again this is why the internet can help. And I think the internet has been incredibly valuable.

Glashow (G): In Africa, this took some positive action by certain national governments because they had to, the stations had to be built, the towers had to be built.

They’re not very expensive, as things go. Had that not been done, this explosion could not have taken place. So there is an infrastructure issue in this regard.

Q: Most of our state funds are allocated for infrastructure projects because we are still building our nation. So how can we legitimize the need for new technologies in other sectors?

R: One thing I don’t have a good feel for is to what extent the government encourages entrepreneurs, helps entrepreneurs to get started and develop new industries. So this is something that the governments can do very well if they choose to do so.

One of the things is to make sure there are small amounts of funds available to get entrepreneurs started. Often they don’t need very much.

G: There are also various international NGOs that can be helpful. But they only can be helpful with the cooperation of the government.

R: Because it’s the legislation that is necessary. And the other question is; do you overregulate?

One of the problems with GMOs [genetically modified organisms] is that because of the activists that have been against GMOs, there are just horrendous regulations in place. And so the small farmer, or the small researcher who might develop a new crop, it can cost so much to bring it to market that it will never get developed.

Again, this is an area where I think governments can play a huge role in limiting the amount of regulation that is necessary to bring your crops into being. [...]

Entrepreneurs work best when there are very few regulations, and the real entrepreneurs are the ones working in an area where there are no regulations whatsoever to start of with.

It’s only after the entrepreneurs have shown what can be done, that all of a sudden the government decides they’ve got to start regulating them.

So, the government is able to play a really significant role if it chooses to. [As] Shelly says, there are international funding agencies and NGOs, places that will be glad to help.

Sheldon L. Glashow (Courtesy of Binus University)

Q: Indonesia’s entire R&D budget is US$1.3 billion this year, and 75 percent of it is state managed despite calls for more involvement by the private sector. How do you see the role of government, in funding scientific research?

R: I think it very much depends from one field to another. That it’s different. For instance if you want to think about medicine, as an example. If you leave medicine solely to the private sector, you end up with the pharmaceutical disaster that we have in the US where the pharmaceutical companies will develop drugs that you have to take for the rest of your life.

They’re not interested in trying to cure disease.

G: Or prevention.

R: They don’t want prevention. Because they can’t make money. They want something where they can constantly make money. So I think here again is a case where, you can learn from what has happened elsewhere in the world and perhaps adopt a new system in which you encourage research that will lead to prevention, that will lead to cures.

This is something that I think you almost certainly have to do, from the government and from charitable contributions. [...]

This is maybe a way in which one could get philanthropic individuals and then fund some area that many of them will support, so instead of spreading the money too far they really find some areas that are worth supporting. Medicine, I always think is a very good [example] because you have a healthy population, one in which [the population] is getting vaccinated and preventing many illnesses.

Q: The Indonesian education tradition breaks students into two groups: life sciences majors and social sciences majors. But when it comes to job-hunting, most of them inevitably go into management and/or banking. How do you cultivate an interest in continuing the pursuit of science for life?

R: Well, you just have to make sure that jobs are available.

That means developing industries that need scientists and making sure that these industries are available and there are jobs available for people.

Maybe paying them properly. You know, most people, when they first get started, they’re actually more interested in getting enough money to live than they are in anything else. What very often happens is managers make more money than scientists. Pay them properly, and you will have no problem in attracting them into these areas.

G: Yeah, that was the problem in Vietnam when I spoke to the minister of science in Vietnam, he wanted to expand the scientific capability of the country. [...] The problem is very simple. The salaries are so low in the universities that professors have to get contracts with industry and work in industry, they have no time at all to pursue other research.