Kevin Rudd (AFP/Getty Images)

After stepping down as Australian prime minister in 2013, Kevin Rudd has focused on civil society as he is currently the president of the Asia Society Policy Institute. Rudd, who specialized in Chinese studies as an undergraduate, recently visited Jakarta to give a public lecture at an international relations forum. The Jakarta Post’s Tama Salim and Agnes Anya talked to Rudd about Indonesia-Australia ties, Australia’s suggestion to relocate its embassy in Israel to Jerusalem and his future plans in politics. Here are excerpts from the interview:

Question: In regard to the bilateral relationship between Indonesia and Australia, where are the two countries currently? What does the Australian government need to understand about Indonesia and
vice versa?

Answer: The bilateral relationship at a structural level is in very good shape. That is the product of governments under both political parties in Australia and different political parties in Indonesia.

Going back over decades and decades, there is a reason for that. Australians in the 1940s sought to be as constructive as possible in supporting Indonesia’s claims for independence in the United Nations and the international community.

We tried to oppose the Dutch […]. So, we had a pretty basic attitude to the Indonesian independence process way back in the forties, which those of us in foreign policy, diplomacy and politics understand.

The second is, during my period in office, we developed a really close relationship with [then-Indonesian president] Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono’s administration on everything. I am sure that has continued with the subsequent conservative government.

I would think that the conclusion of the comprehensive economic partnership agreement between the two sides is very good. It is a new piece in the jigsaw puzzle between the two countries.

I think one thing we can do is probably have more students going in both directions through the agreement. We need more Australians who speak Bahasa [Indonesia]. I think that would be very helpful.

Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison plans to move the [Australian Embassy in Israel] to Jerusalem. Is it a sign that perhaps Australian foreign policy directives are becoming subject to leadership change in Canberra?

When I left the prime ministership of Australia at the end of 2013, I introduced a fundamental reform in the Australian Labor Party. Those rules, which were adopted in 2013, prohibit any midterm change to the party’s leadership. You cannot do it anymore in the Australian Labor Party. Now the result is since 2013, we have had one leader of the Labor Party, his name is Bill Shorten. He will probably be the next prime minister at the next national election.

The conservative parties do not have that rule. So, it makes it very easy for them to have a change in leadership. We’ve had three in government, not in opposition. So we’ve had one leader of the opposition. They’ve had three prime ministers. So, I think when people look at the question of too many leadership changes in Australia, just make the distinction that for five and a half years now, we have had stability in the Labor Party and the conservatives should adopt the same rule that we have adopted to prevent changes of leadership midterm.

In regard to the proposal by Morrison to possibly move the Australian embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, the Labor Party […] thinks it is foolhardy because it is not consistent with decades of bipartisan policy in Australia, which is based on a two-state solution. Recognizing Jerusalem as the only capital of Israel is just wrong as a matter of principle. I am fundamentally opposed to this position of Mr. Morrison and have said so publicly.

Have you ever thought of returning to government or have you ever been approached to return?

Living in the United States for the last four or five years, let me tell you. If you are going to go into political exile, New York is a good place to go.

All my training is on China, and the single biggest foreign policy and national security question facing the US is China. When I go to Beijing, the single biggest national security and economic challenge facing the Chinese is the US.

So, I do a lot of work between the two countries and their governments — sometimes quietly. I am sometimes more public and sometimes things are right to try and hold this slightly crazy relationship between the two of them together. Others are trying to do the same.

I’m not unique at all, but someone who knows both countries well and who speaks both languages. I think it’s a meaningful thing to do. It’s a relevant thing to do. So now I’m happy doing what I’m doing.

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