Ruan Zongze (left) - Chen Shiqiu (right)-(JP)

In the wake of the Permanent Court of Arbitration’s decision on Tuesday to uphold the Philippines’ claim in its maritime dispute with China, Chen Shiqiu, former Chinese ambassador to Indonesia, and Ruan Zongze, executive vice president of the China Institute of International Studies, discussed the matter in a private capacity with a number of media representatives, including The Jakarta Post, on Wednesday in Jakarta. The following are excerpts.

Question: Are you happy with Indonesia’s reaction or would you expect Indonesia to take a different position?

Chen: Indonesia is not a claimant to the South China Sea islands, or other islands and reefs. And Indonesia is not directly involved in the dispute. We would anticipate Indonesia would take a more objective, just and fair position on this issue, as you did in the past.

I think the more objective and fair view would be inconformity with the factual situation and the behavior of the tribunal and the wrongdoing of the Philippine side.

How will the ruling affect relations between China and Indonesia or ASEAN?

Ruan: The direct repercussions are already out there. The relationship between China and the Philippines and between China and other countries in ASEAN or maybe between China and ASEAN as a whole will to some extent suffer a setback.

Maybe some countries will take advantage of the so-called ruling or so-called award to increase illegal activities in the South China Sea. No matter whether it is fishing, or many other events [...] if they think they have a greater mandate because of this ruling, that would be a grave mistake.

It would be wrong because China will respond very strongly to any such measures taken by any countries that think they have a so-called advantage to increase or strengthen their illegal occupation or illegal activities. We need to definitely reduce that misconception.

From China’s perspective, the damage has already been created and China’s response, as I said, largely depends on others. And here including not only, for example, the Philippines and other countries in the region, but also external parties like the US. America will become a very important factor that will determine what kind of measures China will take. And now we have seen America already dramatically increase its military presence in the region, which is not serving the interests of the region.

There have been skirmishes between China and Indonesia related to the South China Sea. How could they settle these disputes?

Chen: There was a high-level discussion between the two countries on the issue of Natuna. It was in 1995. Then foreign minister Ali Alatas and Chinese vice premier and foreign minister Qian Qichen met at a guest house in Beijing. It was crystal clear that China did not have any claim on the territorial sovereignty of the Natuna Islands. And Indonesia did not object to China’s position on the South China Sea. We do not have any territorial dispute in the South China Sea.

But on the maritime delimitation issue, the two foreign ministers did not go into details because by that time the issue was not as hot as it is now. But there was a general understanding that we have some different views about maritime delimitation. This matter could be left over to be discussed in
the future.

In that meeting the Chinese foreign minister was very clear to Alatas that China’s territorial declaration on the sea and the Chinese law on territorial sea and contagious zones specify that these two legal documents apply to the South China Sea, particularly Nansha Island.

This means we have to find time for the implementation of maritime delimitation between China and Indonesia over this area. Our position is clear — we can sit down and have a friendly discussion and peaceful negotiation or a settlement. We are strategic partners and this matter can be solved peacefully by negotiation and consultation.

The matter is not so simple. The UNCLOS was adopted in 1982, which is very recent. Therefore UNCLOS cannot abrogate the right of other sovereign states enjoyed in history, particularly in customary law. It seems that UNCLOS controls everything, controls the whole world. But this is not the case.

You may have your ideas on the issues of EEZ [exclusive economic zones] but China may have its own rights over this area. We may have difficulties [...] then we can sit down and talk.

Could you explain the latest development on China-Indonesia maritime cooperation?

The bilateral maritime cooperation is an important part of our comprehensive strategic partnership. We have been working for 10 years already and we are looking forward to another discussion in Beijing on maritime cooperation. Chinese government has specially set up a maritime cooperation fund worth 1 billion RMB to support the programs. We have also allocated 3 billion RMB for China-ASEAN maritime cooperation. We concentrate on practical cooperation, such as scientific research, search and rescue, climate change control and satellite ground stations.

Because the so-called award of the tribunal is null and void there will be no change to the cooperation. We will continue to strengthen the cooperation between China and ASEAN, and of course between China and Indonesia.

Will the Silk Road campaign be affected?

We will push it forward because it will benefit our friends. There will be no change to the initiative. On the contrary, it will be strengthened.

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